Hi LTR, Great blog! I was wondering if you could weigh in on a couple of questions that have been bugging me about my asset mix and investment selections.
-What is the best thing I could do with money sitting inside a Vanguard ROTH or a Schwab 401k (with unrestricted investment options) for the bond/cash allocation of my retirement accounts given the dismal outlook for bonds in general in the coming years? For instance if this money wasn’t locked in these accounts I would probably seek out CD’s at individual banks which could equal (or almost equal) current bond yields but with principal protection if/when interest rates rise. I would also buy I-bonds. I’ve already done this somewhat with my foray into Mango, EE Savings bonds and lending club (which I know is risky) but I can’t really go further without investing to much of my “non retirement” money in long term vehicles.
-In my “non retirement” taxable money I’ve got a bunch of highly appreciated Apple stock (via employer RSU’s) that I'll take a big cap gains hit on, but I know it’s really to much of my non retirement money at this point. What would you do with it? I’m not sure I really want this locked up for the long term just yet. I don’t have any specific plans to spend it , other than I would like to eventually acquire a rental property.
-Thoughts on my stock allocations? About me: Single, Male, 30, living in San Francisco renting, no debt Balances in $K by account type
401k @ Schwab 51.4
Roth @ Vanguard 134
Taxable @ Vanguard 3
Lending Club @20+% (for now) 2.6
High Yield @5% (Mango..) 10
1980's EE Bonds @ 4% 4.8
TOTAL RETIREMENT 205.8
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Cash at ~ 1% (Ally, Alliant) 53
AAPL Stock 58
TOTAL NON RETIREMENT 111
Net worth 317K
This is my current stock allocation and is 100% invested within my Schwab 401K or my Vanguard Roth using the lowest cost Vanguard or Schwab ETF’s in each category, so my weighted expense ratio is somewhere around ~%0.07. Stock / Bond split 70 / 30
Stocks US / World split 55 /45
Total Stock Market 38.0%
Small Cap Value 7.0%
REIT 10.0%
International Large Cap 30.0%
International Small Cap 7.5%
Emerging Market 7.5%
Bonds right now I have a rough breakdown as seen below... but I’ve never been particularly happy with this, everything but the last two line items are in tax sheltered accounts.
Short Term / intermediate (BSV,SCHR) 25%
Long Term (VCLT) 20%
TIPS (VTIP, SCHP) 25%
Alternate (Lending club) 5%
Cash, Mango, EE savings bonds 25%
I don't follow my allocations with laser focus (since I have to do it all by hand).. but I try to rebalance and stay within 2 or 3% in most cases. I've had a little style drift over the years but not much and have been able to hold on in bad times. Thanks!
My Reply
Thanks for writing and for giving a very detailed breakdown of your finances. From what you listed you are doing everything just about right. Your stock and bond investments are very well diversified and are held at lowest possible costs, which is by far the most important thing in investing. You hold a good chunk in bonds which is a great idea even if bonds are priced for just so-so returns. Not rebalancing too often is fine, especially for ETFs since you're paying the bid-ask spread on each purchase (I assume you don't pay commissions since you're with Vanguard and Schwab brokerages inveting in Vanguard and Schwab ETFs -- but if you do pay commissions that's another reason to not go too crazy on re-balancing). Style drift isn't the best but you say it's slight. The fact that you've been able to hold on through the years is a good sign as well. So overall you are in very good shape. I'll give you my input on some small tweaks you could do and on a more general re-arranging of your portfolio for greater simplicity and tax-friendliness. A lot of my advice will be based on using today's I and EE Savings Bonds available through TreasuryDirect.gov, so you should familiarize yourself with them. It's not that they are great bargains, but they're still better than just about all other fixed income choices.
The most obvious thing that jumps out at me is that you hold $53K in 1% savings accounts but have no I-bonds. I-bonds are very clearly preferable to 1% cash and if I were you I would do my best to open an account with TreasuryDirect.gov and buy the $10,000 allowance in I-bonds for 2012 (it will take several days to process, so do not delay). Then soon thereafter you'd buy another $10,000 in I-Bonds for 2013. After a year those I-bonds become as good as emergency cash (redeemable at very slight penalty) except they yield more and are tax-deferred. As I've been writing over and over I-Bonds are the biggest no-brainer in taxable fixed income today.
I would go easy on Lending Club. I am very skeptical of peer-to-peer investing in the US. Simple reason is that US retail banking industry is very well developed and is very good at gauging risk of lending to individuals and businesses (yes, even after the housing bubble, I'm still sticking to this opinion). The fact that banks are only willing to lend to these individuals at rates much higher than those available on Lending Club is a big red flag. Yes, banks have internal costs and are out to make profit, but there is just too big a difference between 27% charged by credit cards and, say, 13% available on Lending Club. It's fun and even educational to put a bit of money into peer-to-peer lending as you have but I would not make it a major part of the portfolio. And I would look at it more as high-risk equity-level investment than as low-risk, bond-style one.
I'm less enthused with small cap investing than most investors. I firmly believe that all those data series going back to 1920s that show superior returns from small caps are presenting a picture that fails to account for extremely low liquidity of small cap investments in the past. I am guesstimating that the liquidity premium for small caps was in the range of 2% annually in the 1970s and maybe even 1980s and even higher before that. That's why those small cap investments look so good in hindsight. Nothing like this exists now. What we call "small caps" are just as liquid as the largest of large caps. Where liquidity premium still exists today is in OTC stocks and the lowest decile or two by market cap of exchange-traded stocks. These are not captured at all in conventional small cap investments. There are micro-cap funds but the evidence is far from clear that they enable you to capture that premium. On top of the liquidity premium argument small caps have outperformed large caps for the past decade which in my opinion does not bode well for their outperformance in the next decade. The subject of small cap investing really deserves its own post or two but bottom line is that I don't think investors are well advised to make significant bets on small cap in general, and, especially, now. Your bet on small caps isn't excessive, so I don't think you necessarily have to abandon it but I definitely would not increase it.
As far as your Apple stock, I would bite the bullet and sell, pay taxes, and use the proceeds to diversify into your usual mix of stock/bond investments. It's very painful to take the tax hit but no great company is immune from a change in fortunes. Apple stock is very reasonably valued and I have little doubt that Apple will continue to be a great business for years to come, but I just would not want to take my chances on it when I can diversify instead. Maybe you can sell a chunk in 2012 and another early in 2013 to keep yourself from being bumped into even higher tax bracket by the gains. You would then take post-tax proceeds from the Apple stock sale and channel it into the same portfolio mix as you do within your 401k and Roth IRA. More specifically, you could use AAPL proceeds to max out I-Bonds and EE-Bonds for 2012 and 2013 and then sell your IRA/Roth bond holdings in order to buy more equities there.
Also, you mentioned rental property... Do make sure to do plenty of research before going that route. Residential real estate is very reasonably priced in much of the country today, but landlording is very different from passive investing in stocks and bonds. You will never be able to be completely hands-off as a landlord. You might hire a management company but that will eat up much if not all of your profit margin. Do a whole lot of research before jumping in. Here's my post on the subject: http://www.longtermreturns.com/2012/03/how-to-value-real-estate.html
Last of the specific issues is that you said you weren't happy with your bond allocation. I don't actually see anything very wrong with what you have. You avoid longer-term nominal treasuries entirely which I think is perfectly fine since you have VCLT instead. VCLT, while no bargain in absolute terms, is superior to long-term nominal treasuries on expected returns and may well end up superior to short-term ones as well (though it's an apples-and-oranges comparison). The fact that you hold TIPS is another reason to go with I-Bonds, by the way. I-Bonds are clearly superior to any TIPS you can buy and investing into I-Bonds in taxable would let you sell your appreciated TIPS in tax-sheltered accounts and use the space for, say, more corporate bonds or equities. The choice of BSV/SCHR is fine. You're not getting much return out of them, but they are safe from losses in value should interest rates rise. You could exchange them for short-term corporate bond fund (VCSH) to squeeze a little more yield at the cost of a little more risk. The difference will not be dramatic, however. VCLT is your one bid for more yield and I think it's a reasonable holding as well -- at just 30 years old you are young enough that even if interest rates do rise you can afford to ride out the losses in VCLT value and eventually benefit from higher yields. However I would argue that today's EE-Bonds are very close to VCLT in expected returns while being much safer and while allowing you to use tax-sheltered space for other investments.
What I suspect might be a source of your unhappiness with your portfolio is that it simply seems a bit untidy. You have a half-dozen stock holdings and as many bond holdings. Each one of those holdings is perfectly fine on its own and they make sense as a group but overall it's still a messy picture. Here is my suggestion on how to simplify it:
1) Contribute to allowed max to Roth IRA ($5,500 in 2013)
2) Contribute to 401k at least up to max employer match, and, ideally to max allowed contribution ($17,500 in 2013). You are probably in high tax bracket now, so I would contribute to regular 401k, not Roth 401k (assuming that's even a choice).
3) If you are eligible to participate in favorable term ESPP you should continue to do so. Favorable terms would, roughly, be a discount of at least 10% with eligibility to sell within a year or discount of 20% and selling within 2 years, or ability to purchase at lower of two prices (e.g. start and end of quarter). Deciding on whether specific terms are favorable is not an exact science. But if all you get is, say, a 5% discount and having to hang on to the stock for a year I would probably pass it.
4) Until and unless interest rates change significantly from current levels, put the rest of your savings into I-Bonds and EE-Bonds.
The above would let you stash away up to $43,000 in various tax-advantaged vehicles per year plus ESPP plan. I don't know how much you save, but for most people that's already far more than they can save annually.
Then I would organize the accounts as follows: 401k, Roth, and ESPP would be primarily equity holdings while I- and EE-Bonds would be fixed income holdings. With up to $20K annual room for I- and EE-Bonds that lets you to max out 401k and Roth with stocks and still stash away up to $24K in ESPP and still preserving the 70/30 stock/bond split in annual contributions. You probably won't even need that much room since that implies total savings/investments of almost $70K annually.
If you are happy with your stock funds, that's fine. If you wish to simplify then you could go with 55% VTI + 45% VXUS in Vanguard or 55% SCHB + 35% SCHF + 10% SCHE in Schwab.
With your bond funds, again, the idea is that unless and until interest rates change significantly I- and EE-Bonds are easily the superior choices (with I-Bonds doubling as emergency cash reserve). So you would do well to max out your annual purchases of I- and EE-Bonds and as you do so sell off your bond holdings in 401k/Roth to maintain the overall 70/30 stock/bond split.
Here is what your overall portfolio might look like, roughly of course, in five years assuming you simplify, assuming no major changes in interest rates, assuming annual contributions of $20,000 to 401k (including employer match), $5,500 to Roth, $10,000 annually to I- and EE-Bonds, no ESPP, and assuming near-zero market returns (for simplicity only) for these five years:
- Schwab 401k: $100K in SCHB, $65K in SCHF, $20K in SCHE
- Vanguard Roth IRA: $90K in VTI and $75K in VXUS
- Sell all AAPL stock and use proceeds along with current and future savings to have about $55K in I-Bonds and $55K in EE-Bonds (buying $10K of each kind annually)
- ~$50K in cash, CDs, Lending Club, etc.
This would put you at about $350K in equities (55/45 US/foreign in both 401k and Roth IRA) and $110K in I- and EE-Bonds with another $50K or thereabouts of cash/CDs/Lending Club left over in other taxable accounts (which could also be used for your investment property or whatever else). This would give you about 70/30 stock/bond split overall.
Again, don't take all my advice as a sign that you are doing something terribly wrong now. Your portfolio is fine the way it is and you are way ahead of your peers in both the amount of savings and investments and understanding of how to invest successfully for the long term. I am just giving you my input on how I would change things since you asked for it. Hope that answers your questions and gives you some ideas on how to proceed.
I am not the poster, but this was super helpful. I have a follow up question, mostly around whether you would prioritize buying savings bonds or paying off the mortgage higher. I am in my mid-20s.
ReplyDeleteI related to the poster's question about employer RSUs. I sell all of mine immediately and never keep any of them. It's not that I don't believe in my employer's future, but that I want a more diversified portfolio and if they gave me say $10k in cash, I would never consider buying their stock. I don't know about him, but I have three options with my RSUs: 1) sell shares to cover taxes, 2) sell all shares and get cash in my brokerage account, and 3) cover taxes with cash. I follow option #2.
Right now, my finances look about like:
$10k Rewards checking @1.78%
$20k Ally savings account @0.95%
$260k Primary residence mortgage @-2.5% (5/1 ARM, above water)
$8k tax-deferred CDs @2.56% overall
$12k Vanguard taxable in VTIAX
$41k Traditional 401(k) including employer matching
$4k Roth 401(k)
$10k Roth IRA
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$105k in Assets (ignoring property value)
$260k in Mortgage Debt @2.5%
The last split of the last four (tax-deferred CDs, Vanguard taxable, and 401(k)s) is targeted at:
* 24% fixed income/bonds (counts the stable value fund in my 401(k) and the tax-deferred CDs)
* 38% International Stocks (uses VTIAX in taxable and VGTSX in 401(k)/Roth IRA)
* 38% US stocks (uses VFINX in 401(k) and VEXMX to offset in Roth IRA, which I rebalance once per year when I add the Roth IRA contribution)
So in total, I have 4 funds, 5 if you count VTIAX and VGTSX as separate funds. My portfolio is pretty clean and easy to understand and add money to. I also only rebalance with new funds (this rule prevents tinkering by me). I should also be able to switch to Admiral shares funds with my Roth IRA contributions this year.
I estimate that I have somewhere between $75-100k to deploy in savings next year. 2013 could be an anomaly in income as I am currently anticipating $70-80k in savings to deploy in 2014. My plan was as follows:
1) $17,500 Max out 401(k), get full match
2) $10,500 Max out 2012 and 2013 Roth IRAs *My income is in the phaseout range for 2012 (which is why I waited so long). Would you still do the backdoor for the rest? I'll probably wait until late in 2013 to do the 2013 contribution to see how my income plays out, but I'm pretty confident that it will be above the phaseout range.
3) Everything else to pre-pay the mortgage
Would you consider buying I and EE savings bonds before pre-paying the mortgage? If the mortgage was paid off, would you buy I and EE before investing in index funds in my taxable account at Vanguard?
Thank you so much! Your blog is incredibly helpful. There aren't nearly enough resources for people who have a high amount of income to deploy in savings/investments each year.
Very happy to hear you found my blog useful. I've mentioned it in other posts and I'll say it again: feedback from the readers is the biggest motivator for me to keep putting time into this blog. So I'm very happy to hear it's helped you and thankful back to you for taking the time to let me know that this blog is serving its purpose.
DeleteNow on to your questions... Just as the original reader whole questions I was answering, your finances look to be in great shape. Great job on being able to save so much while still so young. The question of investing into fixed income versus paying off the mortgage spans both finances and psychology.
On the finance side, if you can lock into bonds that more or less match the maturity of the mortgage but have higher expected total return than mortgage interest payments (post-tax nets for both) it would make sense to choose those bonds over mortgage prepayment. Let's look at what today's bond market has to offer in a little more detail...
First, let's assume you wish to stay in your house (this one or another one) for a while. If you intend to sell in the next couple of years and not buy another house, then all these calculations become more or less irrelevant since there would no longer be a question of whether it makes sense to pay off the mortgage early.
If I expected to live in a house for many years, I wouldn't take my chances on that 2.5% ARM reset but instead refinance into either a 15- or a 30-year fixed. I don't closely keep track of mortgage rates or closing costs but guesstimating that you should be able to find 15-year fixed at around 2.7% APR or a 30-year at 3.6% APR with all the costs rolled up into that APR.
Next we need to guesstimate how those rates translate into post-tax rates for you. This depends on whether you itemize now and whether you would still itemize if you had no mortgage interest to pay. This calculation can get messy, especially since I don't know your full financial situation. For simplicity I'll assume that you do itemize and that you would itemize even if you did not have the mortgage. That means you effectively lower the interest paid on your mortgage by your marginal tax bracket, which I'll assume to be 33% based on your very high savings.
So now we know (well, we assume, but that's the best we can do) that refinancing into a 15-year would result in effective post-tax interest rate of about 1.8% and refinancing into 30-year would result in post-tax interest rate of about 2.4%. Now we need to guesstimate whether there are bond investments that are likely to best these rates after taxes. The answer is: very likely yes, but not by a lot. Here are the candidates...
1) I-Bonds will track inflation more or less exactly (except they won't decrease in value during deflationary periods, which is a nice bonus). You get to defer taxes till redemption. We can get use current market inflation expectations to guesstimate the coming inflation at about 1.7% (ses http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/data/inflation_expectations/ ). This would be rather low by historical standards. Furthermore, the market demands a premium for inflation protection relative to the expected inflation (as seen by the spread between nominal treasuries and TIPS of same maturity) of about 0.5%. Add those together and we can see that today's I-Bonds are "worth" about 2.2% annually before taxes. Unfortunately, after taxes, assuming you are still in at least 25% tax bracket when you redeem them, we can see I-Bonds won't quite reach 1.8% over 15 years (or 2.4% over 30 if we look at 30-year inflation outlook). So if interest rates and inflation stay exactly where they are expected to stay you will lose very, very slightly (likely talking a couple hundred dollars a year) by holding on to I-Bonds versus prepaying the mortgage. On the plus side, should interest rates pick up, whether due to inflation or some other reason, I-Bonds have a very cheap put option to sell at little or no penalty (other than gains taxes) and re-invest at a much higher interest while keeping your low-interest mortgage. I-Bonds are also very liquid and can double as an emergency fund. Overall, they have a very attractive set of characteristics which, in my opinion, are worth the couple hundred dollars a year they may be expected to lose relative to the 15-year mortgage prepayment.
Delete2) EE-Bonds. These will return more or less zilch for 20 years until they get adjusted to be worth double the principal on their 20th anniversary, resulting in effective 3.5% pre-tax yield. After taxes, depending your bracket, that yield might be between 2.6% and 2.8%, both slightly higher than our 30-year interest post-tax interest and significantly higher than the 15-year post-tax interest. It won't gain you a ton, but going with EE-Bonds is slightly preferable to paying off the mortgage under our assumptions.
3) Long-term corporate bonds. Depending on the quality mix, these have 4.0-4.3% SEC yield (Vanguard VWETX and VCLT) with about 25-year maturity. If held in tax-sheltered account they can be reasonably expected to beat prepaying the mortgage, though should we experience truly severe economic times (think Great Depression or worse) these may lose enough in defaults that they end up worse than EE-Bonds.
4) Long-term tax-exempt municipal bonds. Vanguard's VWLTX and VWALX (the slightly lower quality version of VWLTX) have SEC yields in 2.0-2.4% range with maturities of under 8 years. This compares favorably with the post-tax 15-year mortgage interest rate. Muni bonds, especially higher-yield ones, are not risk-free, but in my opinion it is very unlikely that they will suffer such widespread defaults as to have their total returns dip under the 1.8% mark of the 15-year mortgage. You could hold these funds for 5-8 years and, should interest rates continue to be unfavorable, pay off the mortgage at that time, pocketing the spread in the meanwhile.
5) Stock investments. It is very reasonable to expect post-tax returns from buy-and-hold low-cost stock index funds, either US or foreign, to exceed our estimated mortgage interest costs, either for 15-year or 30-year periods. However now we are really comparing apples and oranges. Bad things that can happen to stocks far exceed the bad things that can happen to bonds. I just don't feel it's prudent to count on stock returns relative to mortgage prepayment even though I most definitely expect stock returns to be substantially higher.
DeleteSo there you have it... A very reasonable financial case can be made against prepayment and for investing into either I-Bonds, EE-Bonds, or long-term municipal or investment-grade corporates (though "long-term" means very different things for the latter two in Vanguard world). Remember the assumptions we made to arrive at all these numbers -- some of them may be wrong so re-examine those before agreeing with any of my conclusions.
Now on to the psychology side of things... Most people find it a very good feeling to be completely debt-free. How much that feeling is worth to you only you can answer. But for many that feeling would be well worth the several hundred to maybe a thousand dollars that you can realistically expect to gain per year in even the most favorable invest-in-bonds-versus-prepay-mortgage scenario (barring outright hyperinflation). While considering this question keep in mind that the feeling of a large liquid and safe emergency reserve (such as provided by I-Bonds, and, to lesser degree by other fixed income investments) is worth something psychologically too.
This reply is already too long, so I'll only briefly touch on your other questions...
- Yes, it makes sense to do a backdoor Roth, especially since you don't have a regular IRA which, I believe, would have forced taxes on the backdoor Roth.
- If I were you I would also most certainly max out I-Bonds at the expense of "high-yield" checking/saving accounts, whether or not you prepay the mortgage. I-Bonds will become nearly as liquid as those checking/savings after just one year while providing better -- and tax-deferred -- interest. They are just as good an emergency fund option as they are a fixed income investment.
- If the mortgage is paid off then yes, I would still continue to use I- and EE-Bonds as primary fixed income investment vehicles until and unless interest rate environment chages significantly. With EE-Bonds it's much more of a commitment (20 years or you get zilch back), but at your age and high income and savings, they still make a lot of sense. I-Bonds are a complete no-brainer -- max them out every year and think of them as an emergency fund just as much as a long-term investment.
Thank you so much for your detailed response and I apologize for taking so long to respond.
DeleteYou're right - giving up the IRA room completely by not backdoor Roth IRA'ing is silly. I've now maxed out my IRAs for the 2012 tax year and moved $5k from my "rewards" checking account to i-bonds. I'll move another $5k from my online savings account to i-bonds and contribute to the non-deductible Traditional IRA for 2013 and then do the conversion for both at once. EE-bonds still seem a bit scarier to me since I can't see that far into the future, but I'll keep them in mind for another year or two out.
I'm not going to invest in non-tax-advantaged, non guaranteed principal investments though before paying down the mortgage. The psychology of seeing that balance go down a few times a month and in large chunks when my RSUs vest is amazing. Then again, so is watching my investment accounts hit the max for the year and keep going the next year.
I'm in the 28% federal tax bracket and live in a state with no state income tax. My mortgage is on a condo, so I'm not sure how long I will end up staying here, hence the ARM. Unfortunately, I wouldn't itemize if I wasn't paying mortgage interest (see no state income tax) and I don't stand to itemize much more than $10,000 anyways.
Thanks for checking back and glad to hear that you have your investments in order. Both the I-Bonds and the backdoor Roth are good moves. And since you posted interest rates moved up a bit to the point where it is quite likely that over the next 20 years long-term corporate bonds (VWESX/VWETX/VCLT) held in tax-deferred/exempt accounts will beat EE-Bonds. But EE-Bonds are still considerably safer and don't eat up tax-sheltered space, so they remain a viable option.
DeleteAlso, thanks to the reader of my blog who submitted the original question -- I did receive your update and it sounds like you are very much on top of things in every respect. I share your concerns about "remote" landlording and would not try it. You backdoor Roth IRA plan is good. So is your retire-by-40 one! It sounds very doable at your very high rate of saving. Having children and staying in relatively pricey Bay Area would put some strain on that (as would an always-possible market collapse, of course). But if I had to bet, I'd definitely say you are likely to reach financial independence by 40. And even if you decide to continue to work after achieving your financial independence, you will feel very liberated. You will be working because you want to, not because you have to. It is a great feeling.
ReplyDeleteAlso, big thank you to The Finance Buff -- http://thefinancebuff.com -- for linking to my blog last few weeks and pointing such excellent readership my way!